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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 25, 2013 6:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

OK, I may be losing my mind and I need some serious help from y'all to tell me I haven't gone all conspiracy-crazy:

BUT....it seems to me that in recently listening and then closely comparing 2 versions of GDTRFB from two different shows in '77, they are EXACTLY THE SAME.

These being 5/13/77 from Chicago Auditorium and 6/8/77 from Winterland. They clock in at exactly the same length (8:05) and I am trying like hell to find differences in the actual playing-- vocals/jams, etc. and just can't.

WHAT IN THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE???

If someone can talk me down on this one it'd be greatly appreciated. Otherwise, someone's got some s'plainin' to do.

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Poster: billydlions Date: Aug 25, 2013 8:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Are you listening to the box set version of 5-13? I know the previous circulating source had major problems with the last two plus minutes so perhaps they either spliced two versions together or just borrowed the whole song thinking no one would catch it. I think they've done that before as someone pointed out an Eyes of the World from 1974 with a mixed in solo from a different show.

BTW, the version of 5-13 that I have is 8:39 in length.

This post was modified by billydlions on 2013-08-25 15:26:12

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Poster: bigdaddy dave Date: Aug 25, 2013 9:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Could a comparison of MD5 files shed light?

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 25, 2013 9:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

I am comparing the boxed set versions from both shows. If there's a difference in them I can't find it. Seems a very inexplicable thing to do to substitute 6/8/77 for 5/13 and not say anything about it.

Perhaps a comparison of the AUD versions would be helpful (if they exist), but this is very very odd.

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Poster: Pat Buzby Date: Aug 25, 2013 4:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

http://archive.org/details/gd1977-05-13.sbd.unknown.6690.sbeok.shnf

http://archive.org/details/gd77-06-08.bertrando-Hollwein.winters.26342.sbeok.shnf

Comparing these two (all 6-8-77 SBDs are off the archive) they don't sound the same at all. 5-13 segues out of Stella Blue and Jerry plays a longer solo (two instrumental GDTRFB verses) before they start singing. 6-8 segues out of NFA and Jerry plays a short (only one verse), but much more energetic intro solo.

On 5-13 Weir plays a China Cat like riff during the "water tastes like wine" verse while I don't hear it on 6-8.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 25, 2013 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Yes it's without a doubt only on the box set versions
The archive copy of 5-13 apparently has
Sound distortion issues so I'm convinced that
They replaced the box set version with 6-8-77
They are exactly the same
Anyone who had both boxed sets please
Give a listen and let me know if you agree

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 26, 2013 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

I don't have both boxes but i compared the archive 5-13 to the box 5-13 and there is no way these are the same versions. As pointed out the archive one has Bob playing the China Cat riff but the box set does not and Jerry's solo out the chorus that follows starts off completely different. Also the timings are all off. The sequence is Stella>GDTRFB>OMSN and Stella is only off by 6 seconds and OMSN by 2 seconds but GDRFB is off by 45 seconds. That can't be explained by differences in track breaks.

Nice catch, you may want to post it on the dead.net forum for the May '77 box and see if you get a response there. I posted once about something Blair Jackson wrote and he responded in the forum.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 27, 2013 12:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Thanks Elbow, that was my next move...don't know if it's worth the trouble b/c at this point there's no longer any doubt that the switch WAS made in the boxed set version of 5/13/77. Would be nice for someone to own up to it tho' so I might give it a shot.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 27, 2013 12:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Someone beat you to it. I checked about an hour ago and some one posted a link to this thread in the May '77 forum. I commented that it would be nice if DL et al., would comment on this.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 27, 2013 12:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Cool! I'm gonna check that out

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 27, 2013 12:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

argh. that site is impossible to navigate. can't find the topic listed anywhere in forums...where exactly did you see it?

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 27, 2013 1:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Click the May '77 box set on the homepage, the forum is at the bottom of the May '77 page.

They do have a weird set up as each thing they are selling has its own forum, so there are 4 forums on Sunshine Daydream.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 27, 2013 1:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Found it--thanks!!!

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Poster: ganges Date: Aug 25, 2013 10:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Fellow 77 fan here, maybe you remember, I haven't posted here for quite a while - I listened to both box sets just now and also to the 5-13 CMiller source which I have and agree with you, sounds like the box set versions are the same and the CM 5-13 IS different, very strange - and you're right, it would have been a good idea to tell us...

But still, don't you think the May box set is awesome sound quality wise?

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 26, 2013 2:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Hey ganges, Nice to hear from you again!

yeah, I have no problem w/the May 77 box set at all, I just think they shouldn't try to put one by us by subbing 6/8/77 GDTRFB for 5/13 and pretending we won't notice. It's just annoying to me, and I would have had zero problem with it if they had just added an asterisk explaining what they did and why (degraded source of the tune from existing 5/13 SBDs)...and in fact I would argue that the 6/8/77 version is THE BEST of 1977 and very much a contender for best version ALL TIME, so it's not the version I'm against, or even the substitution, just the subterfuge. Not cool.

Any idea how to get in touch w/Dave Lemieux just to ask him WTF and maybe get some official explanation somewhere?

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Poster: ganges Date: Aug 26, 2013 6:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Hi there - I know I saw Dave's e-mail somewhere someday but I tried to look around and can't find it, dead.net might forward mails to him, maybe you could try that and I hope he will respond, I'd think he would - well maybe!

I absolutely agree with what you're saying, I have to admit that I didn't notice...

About GDTRFB 77, I have these 2 in my notes as being really good, didn't go back to compare now, they are 4-23 and 10-28. As for THE BEST in this case I might go for E72 (72 being my second fave year after 77), and one of those I even saw as one of my only 3 shows being 4-26, the others I put down are 4-7,4-14,5-3.

I hope we'll get an answer!


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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 26, 2013 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

4/23 and 10/28 are both very good GDTR's for sure. I hear what you say about '72 also, but there's something about 6/8/77 that is both flat-out rock and roll jammin' AND super-smooth, clean and tight. Keith's little piano exclamation point at the end of the final jam going into the last chorus just sums it all up.

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Poster: ganges Date: Aug 26, 2013 11:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

thanks for pointing me to the little piano exclamation point which I hadn't really been aware of, very nice, I understand what you mean - and I agree.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2013 7:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Hey G, I have been following this thread out of curiosity as well, but have to say it has been a long time--2 yrs! Cool. I always recalled we "joined up" here at the Forum around the same time, and that we both ID's ourselves as lurkers, etc., etc.

Long time ago...

And, it is really fun to figure this kind of stuff out; I know it's something that should've been revealed, but I find it interesting--like Phil finding the AUD of HtoH that we ALL know is best, from 8-6-71, and putting IT on the Phil Zone CD in 97 (ie, who put that in the "vault"? etc., etc., and how did he select it, unless he talked to me instead of GoP or some such?

;)

).

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 26, 2013 8:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Phil was given a copy of the famous aud back in not long after the concert. They apparently met him at a post show party and were kind of hoping that by giving him the tape, they might score some NYE tickets either for '71 or '72. They did not get the tickets and Phil didn't remember where he got the tape. By the time they got around to DP35 (Boathouse tapes) they did know who the tapers where and they were credited for their efforts on that one.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2013 8:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Cool; you probably told me this or wrote about it here more than once, but after this long, it's worth a retell.

Rehear.

Reread.

Redundant.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 26, 2013 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

2 years?? Nah, can't be that long....or could it?

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Poster: ganges Date: Aug 26, 2013 11:55am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Hi WT - it's true, it has been 2 years - but I'm here quite a bit (lurking again!). We "met" about 7 years ago, it really is a long time...Have been following quite a few of your posts over the years, how come that your history doesn't show when clicking on your name? GC came before us I just checked.

I thought of you a while back when I REALLY enjoyed 10-25-69, still on my way to dive into the late 60s,grew up then but still prefer early to mid 70s incl. 77 of course. Who knows what will happen when YOU start to listen to post 75 one day...

I hope all is well for you, G.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 26, 2013 12:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

10-25-69.....still my Top 3 of Dark Stars!!!!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 26, 2013 2:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Same version--different dates? WTF is going on here?

Ha--yes, I have listened to post 75, but not for yrs (literally; I was "there" from 74 thru 82, and then for a bit via radio and such, like Farm Aid in 86 or 87 and that sort of thing...but once "here" in 2006, I only played a handful of shows I saw, for friends and family and old time's sake, whatever).

Oh, yeah--my "history" doesn't show because it turns out I am really as special as everyone imagines, myself being # 1 on that list...and they decided that once I post something, well, once is enough, and to preserve everyone's sanity, they don't let ANYONE see it every again...

;)

[Actually, we've all decided it appears to be a "limit" of the system; it happens when a poster reaches 10k posts...next up to test this hypothesis: Dire! But, the lazy dog slob is taking his time!]

Take care, G; hanging in there myself...